Can pet dogs find the eggs of the spotted lanternfly with their nose? We find out from dog trainer and author Melissa McCue-McGrath.

By Zazie Todd, PhD

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Listen to episode 56 of The Pawsitive Post in Conversation wherever you get your podcasts (Apple, Spotify) or below, watch on Youtube or below, or scroll down for the show notes and transcript.

Can pet dogs find an invasive species? Citizen science with Melissa McCue-McGrath

Can pet dogs use their nose to find the eggs of an invasive species, the spotted lanternfly–and what was it like taking part in citizen science to find out? Zazie and Kristi are joined by dog trainer and author Melissa McCue-McGrath to learn all about this fun project. We also learn about Melissa’s book, Misadventures of the World’s Okayest Dog Trainer.

We talk about:

•     the nose work classes that Melissa teaches
•     why the spotted lanternfly is such a problem
•     why Melissa wanted to take part in citizen science
•     the real life issues that affected the project
•     the training that they did with the dogs
•     the field trials at the end of the project
•     the real world applications and why it was fun to be part of it
•     what Melissa would say to someone considering signing up for a citizen science project with their dog
•     why Melissa wrote her new book and what it’s about

Misadventures of the World’s Okayest Dog Trainer is available wherever books are sold. 

Also mentioned:

The books that Melissa recommended are Away To Me by Patricia McConnell and The Discworld Series by Terry Pratchett.

Melissa McCue-McGrath is a professional dog trainer and behaviour consultant. She is a faculty advisor for the Victoria Stilwell Academy and she is the first non-UK person to be accredited with PACT. She’s the author of Considerations for the City Dog, and her new book, Misadventures of the World’s Okayest Dog Trainer, is just out now.

Website: https://melissamccuemcgrath.com/

Highlights of the conversation about taking part in citizen science with your dog

Z: So before we get started talking about the spotted lanternflies, in order for you to get involved in that study, you had to have something kind of scent work or nose work training background. So can you tell us about the nose work classes that you teach?

M: Sure.

So I train scent work, but most of my work has been in behavior. So behavior using scent work as a behavioral tool to build confidence, build some skills, build some relaxation in dogs, particularly in urban settings. So 20 years of my career was done in Boston.

Sometimes I’ll say I did 20 years in Boston and people think I’m talking about jail. But no, I’m just talking about behavior work work in high rises and condos.

And that often scent work was the most accessible activity that my clients could, could do, and the easiest one for them to be able to utilize date in a day to day world for them and their dogs.

So for doing behavior work for 20 years and then coming here to Maine and doing scent work and I don’t have as many behavior cases and being able to kind of use it more in a Sporty Spice kind of way was a bit of a change.

But it seemed that most of my clients still somehow found out that I did a lot of behavior stuff with it. So even here, even in Maine, when most of my clientele is not reactive or aggressive or behavior aligned, most of the dogs in my scent work classes have behavior plans, including the six dogs that did this study.

K: So the spotted lanternfly, which I had heard of, but I didn’t really sort of have much of a sense of before I read that chapter, it’s a serious pest in the US and it is getting close to the Canadian border.

So why is the spotted lanternfly such a problem in the US 

M: So I love talking about this, even though it’s a big bummer.

So the spotted lanternfly came over on shipping crates from Asia in 2014 and was attached to another invasive species called the Tree of Heaven. It’s a tree as advertised. 

But this is the favorite food of the spotted lanternfly.

So as people were planting more and more, the Tree of Heaven more and more lanternfly had a place to exist and thrive and live and mate and have baby lanternflies.

What is unfortunate about the spotted lanternfly is that it is an opportunistic layer and a lazy breeder. And if anybody had called anybody one of those things, it would be the most insulting thing ever.

But for the spotted lanternfly, what that really means is that their eggs can be laid on cars, on trees, on garages, on brick walls, on whatever. They don’t care.

And unlike the emerald ash borer, which can only lay eggs and live and thrive and kill ash trees, your maple trees will be fine. The spotted lanternfly, when it feeds off of things like hops, grapes, cherries, apples, maple trees, whatever it feeds off of, it kind of leaves behind this honeydew, which is like this vomity substance, sounds delicious, but it’s kind of sweet.

And so what ends up happening is that Attracts black sooty mold. And it’s that mold that helps decimate crop after crop after crop.

If and when this species gets here to Maine, where I live, it’s always been predicted to be here by 2026.

And it is in neighboring New Hampshire, and I’m in southern Maine. The New Hampshire border is 20 minutes from my house.

So when it gets here, it does look like it’s on track to be here in 2026. The eggs should be hatching in late March, early April.

But we just don’t want it to keep spreading because when it does get here, it can take out up to 70 crops, including maple trees. We just had maple weekend, stone fruits, hops, and grapes, as I mentioned before. And I really like wine and beer, so I’m going to be very sad, but it is spreading, and with climate change, it’s spreading a lot easier. And because it also lays on cars that vomit, a substance kind of looks like mud spatter.

So if you’re driving your car, it looks like you just have a dirty car.

It’s really hard to identify the eggs if they’re covered because it does just look like mud. So it kind of flies into new areas very easily.

So this is a big problem. Hence, I guess, why there was a research study looking at it.

Z: So this was actually a citizen science project. And what interested you to take part.

M: So what was really cool about this was that I had actually, in part because of the pandemic,

I had started this little podcast called Bewilder Beasts, and it was all about the ways that animals intersected at humanity. And, like, one of them was about these bees that we had trained.

Not well, not me, we like the royal we. We had trained to find bombs in Croatia.

And so by using associative learning, the same stuff that we use for dogs, cats, horses, whatever.

So these bees would get something sweet, sugar water, every time they were on TNT or whatever makes things go boom.

They would then release the bees and they would kind of huddle over where there would be that same odor. And then they could deploy bomb squads to that area without paying for a dog or risking a person or anything like that.

So it was a safer, faster, cheaper way for bomb detection work.

And so I was super interested in this.

It was another bee story, actually. It was about this honey in Pennsylvania that was basically turning the color of motor oil.

And researchers and apiarists, people who study bees or have bees, they couldn’t figure out what’s going on with the honey.

And the honey was also coming out tasting smoky and so they were like, all right, well, hasn’t killed anyone. We’ll keep selling it. We’ll figure out what’s going on.

So a bunch of scientists got involved. They’re dissecting this. Meanwhile they’re still selling this honey.

It turned out that the reason it was dark and smoky was because honeybees were taking this honeydew, that vomitus sweet substance that’s attracting black mold. The honeybees were grabbing that and putting it into the honey.

So if you don’t think about it too too much, it was a pretty cool thing for them to discover. I have purchased this honey. It’s delicious again if you’re not thinking about it.

But I had done a story on that for Bewilder Beasts and one of my students, one of my listeners, had heard it.

And then about six months later she somehow got wind of this multi university study with Texas Tech and Virginia Tech where they were looking to see if they could train pet dogs like mine, like yours, like even Archer, even if he could wake up to do it, I bet he could do a great job.

But train our pet dogs on our nightly walks to be able to find the egg masses of the spotted lanternfly.

So she tells me about it. There was an informational call. I logged into that zoom and I was like, I’m pretty sure we can do this. Like, I already knew we could because of like if we can train bees to find a bomb in Croat,

I can train these five dogs or six dogs to find this egg mass. Like every story you hear about how amazing dogs are, they’re finding something or Timmy in the well or whatever.

I knew we could. It was just a matter of how we were going to do it with five dogs with behavior plans and one dog who didn’t have one.

Which was very different than the from the scope of what they were looking for in this study, they were specifically looking NASW, national association of Scent Working Dogs.

They were looking for that type of trainer. And those handlers.

I am not that. I had never been to a scent work trial. I had never been. Aside from helping,

I had never trained a dog to competitive standards. I use this for behavior work. I’ve got dogs in Maine here that are, that use this as part of their behavior plans.

We were, we were going to be the bad news bears if we were accepted and we didn’t think they were going to pick us, but they did.

And then we were able to go forth with the study and now I get to educate people about this invasive and what their cool dogs can do.

K: So I think you alluded to it a little bit in your, you know, five versus six. But can you tell us about the issues that you had with weather and getting started and how this affected you, what you had to do to get the dead lanternfly eggs to your students?

M: So I like to think that the Virginia teams and the Florida teams did not have to go through what we did.

So in a sense, they had two different cohorts of. Of citizen scientists, which is what we were. We filled out what’s called the seabark initially, which was like, basically a personality test and an ability test of the dog in front of you.

And so we all had to fil out and submit it.

And once we were selected, well, once we had submitted all of our stuff, we realized that was about April to May of 2023.

Come about November, none of us had heard from the study people. So we were like, okay, we just weren’t picked. And one of my students was like, did you ever hear anything? I said, no, I guess we can just move on.

Three days later, we get a call, hey, you guys get to do the second cohort. We got a little bit more funding, which was cool.

They gave us our eggs. They shipped us dead eggs in like, this. It almost looked like window screen mesh, like metal eggs in that.

They sent me, I think, 10 or 15 of those so I could deposit them like the dead fly fairy to my students.

And the day before, our first class was a blizzard because Maine. And so I’m driving around with, like, this, like, little Pokemon lunchbox and, like, giving them out to my students.

Two of them worked at it. Well, one of them worked at a school, a little kid’s school in elementary school.

And so I went to that school to give her her eggs.

And behind the front desk is another one of my students who was not in, who was not selected for the study.

But she asked. She’s like, this sounds like fun. Can I do it too? I’m like, sure, why not? So I volunteered her. I never told the scientist until later.

I gave her a batch of eggs. And then as I’m like, giving these over.

In the United States, we have what’s called a school resource officer. We have police in. In our schools.

Because America, I guess. And so I’m walking out after giving these tiny little squares of metal mesh. They look a little suspicious.

I do not have a child in this school. I have no reason to be at this school. But I show up and I’m handing weird Stuff out and it caught his eye and he follows me out and he’s like, Maam?

I’m like, yeah. What’s in the box?

Like, oh, dead fly eggs. Well, this is a totally normal thing.

So he takes them or I show him what they are. I explain I’m just a nerd about the dogs and stuff. So I didn’t think this was weird until later what I was thinking about.

Like, oh, yeah, now I understand why he followed me out of the school building.

Like, so yeah, the first day we did it on Zoom instead of in person, which was not what we wanted to do, but because we were doing this via technology I had to be present with my students on Zoom and I couldn’t train our dog Captain who was in the study.

So my 11 year old daughter came downstairs and she got him on odor, which is what you would call like pairing. You take food, you take the lanternfly. You take food, you take the cocaine, you take food, you take the missing.

Like the adrenaline of a fleeing suspect. You’re pairing that odor with the, with the resource and, and the things that these animals really, really want. The reinforcer.

Within four trials, all of the dogs were on spotted lanternfly and we were off to the races from there.

Z: That’s amazing.

So what kind of training did you do with your students? And was it, was it the same as if they were searching for birch or that kind of odor that you’d done before?

M: Essentially. So like we these dogs. All but one. It seems like all of these stories are going to be all but one dog and it’s a different but one for each case.

But all but one had a behavior plan and a different all but one had been doing this for at least three years or more.

The only one who hadn’t was this Britanny spaniel named Woody who came to me because he had separation anxiety.

Pretty bad case of sep anx. Animal control was called one day when he was left alone. I think they were grocery shopping or something. So the neighbors called Animal Control because he was so loud and in a city, you wouldn’t think anything of it.

Like apartments, you know, people get noise complaints all the time.

But where these guys are in Kennebunkport, like houses are really far apart. So for him to be that loud and have it be it was a problem. And so they, the owners then realized they had a problem.

They came to me for set banks and then I just wanted to give this really, really drivey dog who had his whole body was just quivering with give Me something to do.

So I put down some birch oil, and he was finding it, like, super fast. Like, I’ve never had a dog get on odor so fast. I’m like, you guys, either you have to start volunteering for search and rescue organizations or you gotta do something. But this dog needs a job.

So when they called and said that we were in the study, I called her and said, everybody else has three years on this. Woody’s done this for a month. I want Woody in the study. And she agreed.

And so we were able to then, with all of these dogs, do that associative learning. The same thing that you would do with bees, the same thing that I would do with these dogs, getting them on any odor on a Q tip, which is usually what we would use in my classes.

I usually start them on clove oil instead of birch, because if they’re going to have an aversive response, it’s usually on the birch one. It’s very minty, and it’s very harsh, I think, for some dogs.

So I usually start with clove oil and then a couple of other happy scents, and then I’ll add the birch.

If you’re a competitive trainer, you’re usually starting with birch because that’s the first one that they want to use for scent work, nose work, things like that.

But these dogs, all, except for Woody, have practiced. I’m going on this odor this week.

Practice it for six months. Hey, let’s add another odor. Okay. So then the dog. So they knew the game and they knew the pairing sequence. So they were on it really quickly because it was basically just adding another scent to their scent Rolodex in their head, much like training a dog to find cocaine and then heroin and then whatever else they need to find. And that is the extent of my drug knowledge.

But having those dogs cure the cue and being able to lump a bunch of things under one umbrella as a thing that they can find and still get the reinforcer is incredibly important in what we call operational handling working dogs.

Search and rescue, drug detection, weapons detection, stuff like that.

For these guys, their umbrella was not anything that if they didn’t find it, somebody was going to be in trouble or die. Like, these guys are looking for just oil on a Q tip and then adding this new fly scent.

They were like, this is decaying matter. We’re in.

Like, to this day, this is still their favorite odor. If I put out four odors, they almost always go to the lanternfly first. They love it.

K: So when I heard that there was field trials. I got all, ooh, I think dog people love field trials. So what did they involve? Yeah, what was that like?

M: So there was an order of operations kind of that we had to follow.

We had 14 weeks from getting the lanternfly eggs in January to be able to get them through what’s called the odor recognition test. So they had to do that one first.

And that’s like a series of six boxes.

And then they had the lanternfly in the mesh in one box, the mesh without lanternfly in another box. Cause they wanted to make sure they were finding the eggs and not the metal.

And then grass mulch, something else. I can’t remember what all the. What was in all the boxes, but.

And then send the dogs out. And then they had 10 trials of searching these six boxes. And they had to be correct 80% of the time to move on to the field trial.

Four of my dogs were able to do that. So those four went into the woods.

Well, sort of. I had to set up two field trials because all of my dogs are behavior cases to a degree.

One dog hated the woods after he stepped on a stick. And then he thought the woods were bad, terrible, no good, evil woods, so he wouldn’t go in the woods anymore.

And then another dog didn’t want to work in a field because she could see all the chipmunks and was more interested in them than searching. So, like,

I set up two 80 foot by 80 foot courses on my property. One in the woods and one in a field, and I’m like, pick the one that you want to try.

And then sent the dogs in to go find. So the field trial was, I think about. I think about 16 to 18 weeks after we started.

So they, within four months, had all passed a field trial.

And Captain, who I had to pull from this study due to a medical issue at the very beginning, he went out during the field trial. He never did the odor recognition test. To this day, that dog is 12 years old, and he has still never done an odor recognition test.

But he passed the field test because he cleared both courses to make sure that all the things were findable for the dogs that were coming to my property to test.

So he passed that with no problem. So he was still able to identify the odor even though he never tested, like, the box game, which was fun.

Z: That’s amazing. 

M: Yeah. I’m so proud of him.

Z: Go, Captain.

So one of your students actually decided not to take part in a field trial, and they had a good reason for it. So what was that? And how can we learn from this?

M: Oh, this is. Actually, it’s. Some people think this is, like, such a sad story, but I think it’s so heartwarming and affirming for all the work that we do when we’re talking about behavior cases.

She advocated for her dog brilliantly and beautifully, and that’s all I could ever ask as a. As a behavior consultant.

So one of those days that we had to do our odor recognition test, there was an ice storm going into that weekend. And we’re like, well, we’re right on that 14 week that we kind of have to do this, like, But I don’t know how we’re gonna do this, like, box test, the odor recognition test.

We don’t have power. Our town lost power, and the Atlantic Ocean tried to eat half of Kennebunkport, the next town over.

So we were really in a bad way, environmentally speaking. There were almost 200,000 people without power in our area, like, in the southern part of our state.

And it was a very, very, very big ice storm on top of high tides and a nor’. Easter. So we’re like, great climate change. So we sitting at home in the dark, in the cold, in all of our houses, trying to brainstorm what we were going to do. And a friend of mine had a location.

She had already offered it to us, and they had heat and they had power, and we were all like, we would love to pee and be able to flush a toilet and get warm and do something fun with our dogs.

And had I had my behavior hat on, I would have said no.

But I didn’t. I had my, hey, we’re doing citizen science hat on with these other dogs who were not very good at changing environment.

These dogs, some of them, had never taken a basic manners class. They’d only done scent work for a behavior reason or just to give their dog something to do, to be supportive of their dog.

So we’re like, let’s go.

We all drove up to my friend’s house. We set up the six boxes they’re all walking in one at a time into a new location that reeks of other dogs, with a new person standing there who owns this business, and then us with our boxes. And the dogs were understandably confused.

None of the dogs passed on this property. But one of them, June, had gone in, and as she started her test, a fire truck went by and blared its horn, and she froze and just absolutely lost it. She lost her entire composure. She was not able to continue.

And so we sent them home.

I think she went through four trials, but it was clear this was not going to to work. And it was just not. At one point, it was like, this isn’t behaviorally sound for us to see if she can keep going.

This is not fair.

So we sent her home.

And then during her next try at the test, they each had three tries that they could take to do the 10 box game.

All but one passed on the second try. One did pass on the first, which was cool.

But she came in to do her test the second day and the owner was visibly upset and was like, I have been trying to put out lanternfly. She’s not looking for it.

This is supposed to be fun for her. It’s not. I can’t in good conscience keep going with this. I’m like, this is the right decision.

So instead of putting out lanternfly, we did give her the test, but we put cheese in the box. So she came out and she’s like, cheese boxes. And so she found all ten cheeses. No problem.

K: I feel kinship with that. I myself would also find the cheese. 

M: Wensleydale. 

But she came out and she like, we started to see that tail come from tucked to like neutral and wiggly, like stiff to wiggly.

Her eyes that were big saucers when she came in started to soften. We were like, okay, this is where we need to be right now with her. And I’m really proud of her for finding those 10 pieces of cheese. Because if we ever get invited to clean clear a winery, somebody has to find the cheese for us to match with the wine that we hopefully are given in compensation for saving an orchard.

But she has since come back.

She’s been with me now for four years total five, almost five years now. And when she came back for scent work, I think she got like a three or four month break and then came back into it.

She’s my most reliable lanternfly hunter and she even last week. I just love this so much. I know I’m going on and on, but I just love this dog.

She came in to the room and we had changed it all on her. Now June needs things very specific way. So if she’s in position one for her setup. She’s always in that one little pod for her setup.

I try never to move her spot and we always have the. The shades pulled. And then the dog next to her is always the same dog next to her. She just needs things a certain way and then she can work.

Well, my boss had taken a break between scent work classes. And so we had an agility pop up class, and June signed up for it. I don’t even think she’s ever done a basic manners class.

So she comes in and June’s like, what’s that? Who are these other three people? I did not give them permission to be here.

Nobody checked with me. Like, so she was bark, bark, bark, very upset. My assistant’s working with her. And we gave my assistant some lanternfly eggs to find in her pod. And then she started sniffing around over there.

We get her out onto the floor. We’re trying to encourage her over some of the obstacles. She’s like, nope, everybody’s watching me. I don’t like it. So we put out lanternfly and then she went through the tunnel, and then she was able to go over the jump.

So, like, this thing that was so scary to her because of this horrible association with this fire truck ends up being the thing that got her through an entire agility class and, like, got her to soften and got her to a good place.

So, like, I am so proud of this dog and for this handler, for their advocacy.

And yeah. She’s not gonna win any competition. She’s not gonna win any trial. She’ll never go to a trial. But she’s very good at what she does in our classroom. My heart is always so big for June.

K: I think that almost leads into our next question, which is about, you know, in the dog training community, you do hear about a lot of trainers use scent work as, like, enrichment or, you know, behavioral sort of support for dogs. That’s really good for them.

We all love hearing about it. And as I was reading about the lanternfly work you’re doing, I was like, oh, this seems like it could be a cool next step for people who are like, we’ve done nose work.

You know, here’s something that you can do with your, you know, like, do you think it’s.

This is like, a good opportunity for those guardians who have done a lot of nose work and are kind of looking for maybe what’s the next fun step?

Oh, I love that question.

I think. Yes. And what I mean by that is some of the dogs that had that n A SCW certification or have trialed through that organization and were in this study, the dogs that were in areas of live invasion. So, like, Ohio. There’s actually a core group of dogs that did this study in Ohio. They moved from the killed flash frozen lanternfly eggs that we were given to live eggs.

And they’re finding live eggs in the metro parks region of, of Cleveland, which is amazing. So these dogs are actually going out, taking that scent work stuff that they learned and now they’re doing this in real life, which is so cool.

There are certainly things to keep in mind though. You don’t want your dog to find just any old invasive.

In Maine. We have this one actually. I don’t know if you guys would have it up where you guys are. It’s called the brown tailed moth. Have you heard of this?

It’s like a caterpillar. It’s one of the no touchy caterpillars because it’s, its hairs are very toxic and can cause horrible rashes.

The other unfortunate thing is as the caterpillar decays, let’s say it dies and decays and those hairs become loose, they can blow on the wind and you could be nowhere near a live brown tailed moth and still end up with horrible rashes or pain.

So would I take Captain and train him on brown tailed moth Even though it’s invasive and absolutely not like that is, I don’t want the no touchy spiky thing to go up his nose where it can cause serious harm.

So we have to be really considerate and thoughtful about what invasives we’re looking for and how and what is the best time and place to be looking for this invasive.

So we were trained on the lanternfly eggs, not the lanternfly.

The reason is because of the life cycle of the lanternfly. They hatch in April, May.

They go through a couple of stages, like a nymph stage, a second nymph stage, and then they’re a beautiful butterfly looking thing.

They really are pretty, which sucks because it’s such a dangerous thing.

But then they die after they lay their eggs. The eggs overwinter. So if you can get to the eggs and kill a bunch of the egg masses, you’re reducing the next generation of lanternfly.

That’s why they wanted us looking for the eggs. There was, there was a lot of thought and consideration with the plant scientists, the forensic plant scientists, the environmental scientists, the dog scientists, the behaviorists, like they all got together and crafted when do we look?

How do we look? What’s the best time in their life cycle?

So if you train your dog or if you’re a dog trainer and you’re like I’m going to train for an invasive and you bring in an invasive, there’s a chance that you are letting that evasive go into your area.

So like you have to kind of know what you’re doing, so you don’t make things worse on accident.

So I would encourage people to talk to their extension school or to any environmental agencies in their region and see if there’s something where you could potentially train a dog.

So for us, our next step would likely be emerald ash borer, which is here. It only attacks ash trees. Unlike the spotted lanternfly, that can take out like 70 different things, it can only take out ash trees.

So if you know how to identify an ash tree, you can have your dog check the tree. So now are you checking for poop, for eggs for the full adults?

I’m holding my hands really big. They’re actually about the size of a US dime. They’re very, very small.

Um, so what part of the life cycle are you training to and why are you training to that? And, and that has to happen in dialogue with environmental experts, of which I mean, you might be a dog trainer who is also an expert in environmental stuff, but it’s unlikely.

Z: Yeah, absolutely. I think this is really fascinating. So are you aware of any other research, research studies that are going on that are looking at species at risk or conservation? And are any of them citizen science that people could maybe take part in?

M: Yeah, I loved the citizen science aspect of it because it really was like a nice foothold into this type of work.

It wasn’t like all or nothing. Like we had a finite amount of time that we were collecting data and submitting it and then we were done.

And there was like no pressure after this was over for us to continue and if we wanted to, we could find a way. If we didn’t, that was fine. So it was great introduction into this.

I’m not currently aware. That doesn’t mean there aren’t any of other citizen science things quite like this.

But I know that they were looking for additional funding to continue on some of the research that they had that that might be supported by the data that they collected.

So this was just what they call a proof of concept study. It wasn’t, every dog can find every invasive species. What they were able to determine was X percent of these dogs are able to successfully identify this egg.

And of this number of dogs, X percent can do this on real fly eggs. That was really all it was designed to do.

And hopefully somebody can use that as a stepping off point. And if they do, I volunteer as tribute to be your citizen scientist.

Z: And can I just stress, real dead fly eggs.

M: Dead. Very dead. Very dead. Dead. Dead. At least for us.

What I found interesting and I think I’ve missed the first part of this, the question. So I’ll come back to that in a second. But like, what I found really interesting about this was the dogs who were able to find, who were in live invasion and they were able to find the active invasion.

Some of them were taking their field test and were looking for the dead fly eggs and were alerting in other places where they didn’t hide. Then they had to bring out the evaluator who would look and confirm, no, these are live eggs. Your dog just hit live eggs.

So the dogs were hitting on live invasion in many cases during their test. So that the transition from dead to live was actually very easy for most of these dogs.

But there was a 40% attrition rate in the citizen scientists. So they started with 180 dogs and 40% were done by the time of the first test that we took, the odor recognition test.

So I don’t know why that is. I think that would be a really cool thing to find out from the scientists. But that was, I think that was like the most shocking number to me was like, you got in and now we’re not doing it.

And maybe they also had a bad winter and it was just torture.

Z: But I actually think that’s a really good number that. 

K: Yeah, me too.

M: Oh, really?

K: Yes. But the social scientist in me is curious about why people dropped out too. I’d be like, well, you know, we could ask some questions.

M: Right. And that was the part that I just couldn’t like for, for me, as somebody who’s never done, you know, I, I have my bachelor’s degree in psychology, but I never did like the high level science for like a Ph.D. or something like that. And, and so that 40% to me is essentially a layperson is really high. And for you guys are like, oh, that’s. Well, that’s about right.

It would also be interesting to hear, like, what is any. Like what are the themes that are kept. That kept people in it? So the people who stayed in it, what were they getting out of it? And you know, for us, I think it was sheer spite that it’s like, we’re committed, we’re doing. We are Mainers. We signed up for this and if it kills us, we’re gonna finish this study.

K: A little while ago, when you were like, you know, maybe don’t just go do this on your own, do it in part of a bigger managed project, my first thought was in the area where I work in The Northwest Territories cougars are moving into areas where they haven’t been before. And I’m like, don’t do that. Hey, don’t do that. 

M: Nope, nope, no, don’t do that.

One thing that I keep thinking of is, is, and this actually brings me right back to the first part of this question is like, do other people do this?

In Maine there’s a canine science organization where they train dogs to find either. Well, we call them two different things. Conservation canines who are looking for, they’re looking for endangered animals that. Or species that need some help or invasive species detection dogs like what we were doing, looking for the species that are making things harder for the other animals to survive.

And they can train these dogs pretty quickly once they get the game.

And they’re usually training for one of two things, eggs or scat. Those are usually the two things that you’re training to.

So as long as you’re not turned off by like decaying eggs or animal poop, you’re probably going to be able to find an organization here locally. Ish to you that is actually doing this work in the environment.

Most of it is volunteer based. So much like search and rescue people. Dogs, horses, like I said at the beginning, horses. We’ve trained two horses in the state of Maine to find missing people.

So the horses are sending them missing, which I am just absolutely not surprised by and think it’s super cool that we’ve done it but that we’ve been able to take these animals and go out and find these things.

But it’s mostly volunteer based. You’re not going to be able to put food on your table and do this full time. So it is quite a juggling act. And it is a labor of love is my understanding from people who do this operationally with hundreds of hours of training and take like six months to a year to train to competency on one odor.

If you’re going out in the woods, which is very different than us looking for something in a box like that.

K: That nicely leads into our next question, which is what would you tell someone? So we, we have a lot of listeners who are dog trainers, but also a lot of dog guardians.

What would you tell someone who is like kind of fired up and. And was like, I want to do citizen science, either canine citizen science or even just, you know, general ecology. I know there’s a ton of really cool ecological citizen science. It’s ongoing.

Yeah, I would say try to go for it. Like, hey, and it looks like you can just like bail if you don’t want to. It sounds like they’re not surprised by it.

K: No shame.

That might not be the takeaway, but I. I think truly, if. If you’re excited by it and you want to see what the whole process is much like.

Like how I think about getting into job training was, for me, it was like, I have no idea what I’m doing. I’m doing the best of the information I have. And, wow, this is a lot harder than I thought it was going to be.

You will either hate it and walk away, or you’re going to be fascinated by it. And even the hard things are worth it and you’re going to keep going and then you’ll learn more. And I think if there is such an opportunity and you’re really curious about it, do it.

See what, See what this take. See what this is like. And then when you’re watching all of these news articles or videos or inspirational, insta, real talk things, you know how much work went into it with what you were doing and multiply that by a thousand.

To see those dogs that are doing this work out in the woods, off leash, on long lines, finding missing people, finding.

Finding the missing and the dead, like Cat Warren, like, so much work and energy and effort on both that dog and the handler.

It was an emotional journey. I was just on a different podcast where I was talking about how for us as individuals, there were six of us, and each week one of us was having a bad day.

So it would be like, let’s say I was the one in crisis that week. So my kid had such a severe anxiety, she couldn’t get into her middle school for seven months.

Like, she was having panic attack after panic attack. It was awful. And trying to support her. And that was happening during this study.

And so, like, I would go in and set up the classroom and then, like, absolutely just get hit by a moment of just sad and just start crying in class.

And then they would all support me and be like, you’re fine, we’re here for you, blah, blah, blah. And then the next week I’d be fine. And then one of the handlers would be like, like, my mom has Alzheimer’s and she’s not gonna make it.

And then we’re all like, we got you. Like, and then the next week somebody else would have like, we all had huge life things happening, unfortunately, at the same time as this study.

But, like, that cohesiveness and I think what really brought us together as, as a cohort was that all of these dogs, or most of these dogs had behavior issues, or they at least appreciated the behavior work that the other handlers were doing if they didn’t themselves have a behavior issue.

That we were all kind of in this together. None of us knew what we were doing.

I told them from the beginning, I have no idea what I’m doing. Are you guys in? And they’re like, yeah, let’s try it.

So, like, I didn’t lie to them at all. I didn’t say, I know exactly what I’m going to do. We’re going to. No, we were figuring it out, all of us, at the same time. Like, I had measured. You’ll appreciate this because I’m American and you guys use better measuring systems than we do.

I read. I must have read the how to Set up the Field Test a hundred times. 25. I think it was 25 meters by 25 meters.

And in my head, it was feet. And I’m like, this isn’t hard. 25ft. That’s like four cars by four cars worth. We got this. 

We got this. We got this. And then my student rolled in, and she’s like, meters are bigger than feet. And I’m like, well, how much bigger? And so we were googling it, trying to figure out how big a meter is compared to feet.

And it’s almost 100ft by a hundred feet. We’re like, oh, this is a much bigger area than we thought, like, significantly.

But I like when, like, we kept each other going, like. So if I was having a bad day and couldn’t tell meters from feet, like, the students were there, and when the students were falling apart, I was there. And like, we. We just had each other’s back the whole time.

So I couldn’t imagine trying to do this for real. Real after trying it this way. And I have a much deeper appreciation for the work that operational handlers do.

Z: So this actually is the only chapter of your book that I’ve read so far, and I really loved it. It was really fun stories about. About this work that you did.

And so I’m really looking forward to reading the rest of your book, obviously. So can you tell us about your new book and why you decided to write it?

M: Sure. So in 2015, I got a phone call out of the blue by the Victoria Stillwell organization, and I’m just trying to make pasta for me and my kid and my husband. And then I get, Victoria Stillwell is calling you. I’m like, what? Like What. What did I do?

And so I. I answer, and it’s one of her people. And she had just started the Victoria Stillwell Academy. They had a student of theirs in my area of Boston who needed to have an advisor, essentially, but they didn’t have anybody local to her.

So then they were looking up other credentialed trainers in the area, and they came across my name. At the time, I was the training director or co training director of the oldest obedience club in the country.

So they were like, well, that’s probably a good place to start.

So I get assigned to Zoe, and she works her butt off for six months. She’s on every private consultation I’m doing. She goes to every class.

I have her start trying to teach a little bit and just kind of give her a little bit of rope so she can practice. It was such a cool experience to be that kind of, like, given that responsibility as an instructor, but also to watch her grow and, like, shatter expectations that she had of herself and of the industry.

Kind of much like these lanternfly, like, how hard it is for operational handlers. I think for her, she came in, I just love dogs and like, oh, this. There’s a lot of pee in this.

And like, humping is really hard to talk about in front of people. And this is weird. And to see how hard some of my private cases were.

So I think it was kind of a, I don’t want to call it a rude awakening, but I think it was an awakening of sorts for her to be like, oh, there’s a lot more here now that I’ve opened my curiosity and I’m here.

And so she gets ready to take her last exam to get her certification. And we’re in the car and she goes, well, how. What do I need to know for the test tomorrow?

And I’m like, well, the learning theory chapter. Probably good to refresh that. And she’s like, nope, pause. Not that. Nothing that I’ve learned in the course. What didn’t they tell me? And that’s what this book is.

This book are like stories. Each chapter is like your worst case, your humpiest cases, your whatever. So I wanted this book to be kind of conversational, like trainers and behaviorists and dog nerds talking about their experiences in this industry.

But I also wanted these personal stories to highlight a bigger facet of dog training. So there’s one in there that’s your experience with sexism.

89% of dog trainers that have graduated in, I believe it was 2019 when I reached out to all these organizations. So Victoria Stilwell, CPDT, Academy for Dog Trainers, Pet Professional Guild, and there was another one in there and I reached out to them and I was like, hey, all of your graduates, how many were women or female identifying or at least not CIS white dude identifying and how many were men?

And the numbers I was able to get and compile. My husband’s a data analyst, so he was able to actually write some programming for me and actually pull the data, which was cool.

And it turned out to be about 89.9% are either women or non binary people. And we’re trying to figure out how on earth is this industry still so misogynistic and sexist in many ways.

And so talking about that and talking about like when you go into a house that you’re expecting to be a jumping case, like, oh, this will be an easy training case, and then the dog bites you in the hand when you walk in and now you have a behavior case with a bite history or hoarding case. You don’t know it’s a hoarder until you walk in the front door.

So things that were either really funny that you’re not expecting or really heartbreaking, but that you’re not expecting because nobody told you what that part of this is like.

So I wanted it to be kind of that like the behind the curtain of what this industry is really like.

Much in the way that one of your bark authors last year was Dr. Philip Schott. And I was familiar of his work, not in the fiction sense, but his nonfiction books as a veterinarian and talking about what that was like. And Dr. Nick Trout had a very similar book for a veterinarian at Boston’s Angel Memorial Hospital.

And being a big fan of those two, that also informed how this book was going to be written. It’s a behind the scenes of this is what you’re doing behavior consultant or your dog trainer is probably talking about buying.

Z: Very cool. Congratulations on the book.

This transcript has been lightly edited for content and style.

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